No two people exemplify the connection between fashion and interior design better than Tonne and Wendy Goodman. From their positions at Vogue and New York Magazine, respectively, they have chronicled and shaped the course of American style. In this episode, the sisters discuss the evolution of American design in fashion and the home, the growth of celebrity culture from Madonna to today, the importance of visual storytelling, and what’s next for fashion, interiors, and the media after the corona crisis.
Additional resources:
- Sisters Tonne and Wendy Goodman Have an Eye for Beauty via Town & Country
- The Repurposing of a Vogue Editor via The New York Times
- Turning the Tables: Wendy Goodman, New York Magazine’s Design Editor via Nate Berkus
Connect with Chairish and our guests on Instagram:
- Chairish: @chairishco
- Michael Boodro: @michaelboodro
- Tonne Goodman: @tonnegoodman
- Wendy Goodman: @wendygoodman
READ AND LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE EPISODE:
Michael Boodro 0:00
It’s a given that fashion and interior design relate, but who knew they were actually sisters, or at least that they are embodied in the careers of two incredibly talented sisters, who not only shared a bedroom when growing up in Manhattan, but now live around the corner from each other in the West Village.
Tonne Goodman has been a fashion director at Vogue for more than two decades where she’s worked with top photographers, supermodels and world leaders and celebrities, ranging from Michelle Obama to most recently, Gal Godot. Before that she was with Calvin Klein and Harpers Bazaar. And now while continuing to work for American Vogue, she does work for Vogue editions around the world. And her stunning book point of view came out last year. Welcome Tonne.
Tonne Goodman 1:07
Thank you, Michael. It’s a pleasure to be here.
Michael Boodro 1:09
Wendy Goodman has been the interiors editor for New York Magazine since 2007, and also contributes to their online portal. But before taking on that role, she was a fashion editor for New York Magazine, and worked at Harpers Bazaar and House and Garden, twice. Wendy is known for her broad taste and all encompassing eye and her celebration of the personal style of celebrities, artists, bohemians, designers, stylists and socialites which is documented in her latest book. Hello, Wendy. It is lovely to talk to you. Wendy has been a favorite colleague of mine in the design world. And I got to know and admire Tonne during my years at Vogue. So I’m especially pleased to have them both here to talk about their careers, their connection, and what they see ahead for media, fashion and home design. So I’m so happy you are both here. I wanted to get a little of your background, because the two of you I know, grew up in Manhattan, and you had very stylish parents. And I think that obviously had an effect on you. And I’d just love to hear a little bit more about that. So Wendy, why don’t we start with you?
Wendy Goodman 2:14
Well, first of all, thank you, Michael, for having us. This is a pleasure. And yeah, I mean, also thinking back right now to the New York we grew up in is doubly sort of sweet and kind of heartbreaking because of the quarantine and our new lives. Right? Our parents were incredibly artistic. And our mom is an artist and she took us everywhere. She had four kids. She dragged us to museums, the theater and auctions and all the things she loves to do, she included us. And it made a huge impression on all of us. And that impression just kind of revealed itself as we grew up and went into our various careers, which all are related to some kind of creative work. I think our brother builds houses and has a construction company and works with his hands. He’s an artist, really. And our other sister Stacy, is an archaeologist and she’s amazing working at Sotheby’s doing pre-Columbian specialty. And so we’ve each taken all of our parents’ wonderful, artistic blue, and the exposure that they gave us. I think it was the exposure that really inspired all of us.
Tonne Goodman 3:33
I think that you know, it was interesting, Wendy is that the range that Mommy exposed us to somehow tapped into something that was innately part of us, because it was so broad. I mean, we went to all the museums. Stacy is an archaeologist. She started out at the Museum of Natural History working there and then she jumped the fence and actually started to work on the other side of the fence when she went to Sotheby’s. But Stacy in Long Island Wendy, if you remember, she used to go to the old haunted house. Remember the old haunted house? She would dig around there and find old newspapers. And you know, she was always scavenging even as a little girl, and she didn’t know at that time that she was going to end up as an archaeologist, but she had the exposure to the Museum of Natural History. So you know, it plugged in. I had the exposure to MOMA. And then there was Sotheby’s that Mommy used to take us to, to all of the auctions. We were so fortunate to have a mother who had such a cultural kind of yearning and the fact that she enjoyed her company. She took us everywhere she went.
Michael Boodro 4:39
Yeah. Very sophisticated. And I’d say almost a rarefied background. But you know, I grew up with three sisters. So I have to ask, were you guys competitive? Did you ever fight? I mean, was there ever a sense of, I’m into fashion, you can’t be into fashion. I’m into home, you can’t be into home?
Wendy Goodman 4:55
No We have never, ever, ever, which is really weird and people just are sort of standing by. But we have never been competitive in that way. The only time we had a bit of a moment was over a guy.
Michael Boodro 5:12
God help the sister who comes between me and my Mr., right?
Wendy Goodman 5:16
That was the only time in our lives where we actually didn’t talk to each other because we went down on this vacation together when we were like 16 or 17, alone to St. Marten. So we both fell in love with the same sailor. And you know, Tonne being the rebel that she is, stayed. She didn’t go back to art school. I came home alone. And my parents said, where’s your sister? And I went well, that’s a long story. So I mean, that is literally the only moment that we had and guess who won? My sister won.
Tonne Goodman 5:50
It wasn’t a matter of winning or losing. It was just a matter of circumstance.
Wendy Goodman 5:55
Well, yeah.
Michael Boodro 5:58
Right, exactly. And I imagine that he had a little something to say about the matter. But Wendy, you more than made up for it so I wouldn’t worry about that. Although it’s interesting that she remembers it, isn’t it Tonne?
Wendy Goodman 6:10
Yes. Michael, you don’t forget those moments.
Michael Boodro 6:16
So Tonne, I know you worked as a model for a while.
Tonne Goodman 6:19
Let’s just go back. Okay, I worked as a model for a nanosecond. I was not a good model. I was a terrible model. But I did have the opportunity to work with the greatest photographers. I was photographed by Richard Avedon and by Irving Penn, and it was very good company. So I did have a very important exposure from that side of the camera, which really did feed into the role that I inhabited afterwards as an editor.
Michael Boodro 6:50
Right. Well, I’m sure you observed everything because knowing your work and everything, you don’t miss a trick.
Tonne Goodman 6:55
Yeah. And so I think I have a certain empathy for the subjects on the other side of the camera having been there myself and I think that makes a difference.
Michael Boodro 7:05
Right. And Wendy, I would think that would apply to you because I know one reason I admire designers so much is that I’ve tried to do it myself. And so I admire anybody – you know, I took photography classes in college. That’s one reason I learned to love photography. I couldn’t do it. It’s a miracle to me. And even as a designer, I mean, I can outfit a room. Okay, but I can’t do what designers do. And is that something that you feel is true for you as well?
Wendy Goodman 7:37
Oh, it’s absolutely true. I mean, I marvel at the vision of a designer. I will go into an apartment that looks horrible. And I cannot really envision that magical thing that they can do. Their foresight into all of it, I think is a beautiful and very creative profession. And I always say to people, if you can give yourself the gift of working with a designer, give yourself that gift. Because, you know, they’re pros. And if you’ve got the right one, we really can enhance and make your life so much better.
Michael Boodro 8:11
I totally agree. And one of the things that I love about what you do at New York Magazine, as I mentioned, was the range of interiors that you cover and celebrate you know. That you don’t impose your taste on anyone and you appreciate the world that’s out there. Now, was that something that was clear to you from the beginning? Because I know like, House and Garden from having worked there myself, various times, and you did it twice, under two different editors? Has it ever been not a conflict but shall we say any issue for you to sort of take something that you love and then the editor in chief doesn’t go for it? Has that been an issue for you over the years? I have to think less so in New York Magazine now. It sort of seems like you have free rein but how did you adjust to that?
Wendy Goodman 8:58
Well, I think yes. There’s always a moment of that, I think if you’re working for your editor in chief, and the editor in chief has a very clear vision of who their reader is. But I will say that when I joined House and Garden, the first time coming from fashion, I kind of was lucky in that I didn’t know what I was doing. So I thought well, I should do what I know, which is ask fashion designers, if I can come and visit them and do stories on their places. And I started with Geoffrey Beene, and then it went on from there. And that was sort of before fashion had become such a big issue within interior design and you know, covering fashion designers at home. But I think that what’s always interested me is telling a story. So the work at New York Magazine is really storytelling about stories of the city and how people face the challenges and the wonderful inspiration of living in the city. That’s where it started and again, Adam Moss was just so encouraging and inspirational as an editor in chief and a boss because he encouraged and was interested in that storytelling. And the more original and kind of strange storytelling, he was really interested in. And so it encouraged me to really seek out what I love even more, you know, and it’s basically storytelling, right?
Tonne Goodman 10:21
I want to add something to this Wendy because when you just mentioned that you started from fashion, and then you started to go into fashion designers houses. That was the kind of natural progression there. You not only did that, but I really do think that we can credit you with the fact that you always brought the person who lived in that place into the picture. There’s so many interior stories, where you just see these remarkable rooms and gardens and everything, but you have never ever not included the spirit that actually makes that photograph what it is. And that’s the person that lives in it. And I think that we can credit you with that. I don’t think we really saw it that much before you introduced it. I really mean that.
Michael Boodro 11:09
I totally agree with your Tonne. And I agree Adam Moss is a great visionary editor. Somebody can give you free rein but if you don’t take those reins and run with it, that’s, you know, that’s what you did, Wendy.
Tonne Goodman 11:22
But she also was already doing that. So when Adam got Wendy, he knew what he was getting.
Michael Boodro 11:27
Yes, exactly. But Tonne, you’ve worked with some visionary editors as well. I mean, and what’s interesting to me, is when you were working at Calvin Klein, to me, you sort of embodied and even in your personal style, this sort of spare, minimal, relaxed American ease. To me, you’re like the best of American style. And that’s what Calvin Klein was at the time. And, you know, Calvin Klein was sort of also an inspiration and home because I remember when he did his loft, in the 70s, and worked with Joe D’Urso and those other designers. I mean, we all wanted to get moving because of Calvin Klein and Joe D’Urso, you know, and I did get one finally, that kind of moment and ease. And yet, as you progress in your career, you have dealt with all kinds of designers and all kinds of models. How do you approach that? But you always keep it with you. I can usually look at a Vogue shoot. And before I read the credits, I say, oh, that’s a Tonne shoot.
Tonne Goodman 12:26
Well, it’s interesting. I mean, people have said that to me before, and I actually don’t really understand it. I think that there is a part of me that as an editor, I have subconsciously relied on all of the experiences that I’ve had in my life, and that they somehow echo into the photographs they are referenced. Even if it’s not very obvious, it’s there. I think that, you know, it’s just part of my DNA as I’m very practical. And I think that that’s one of the reasons why my persona is pared down and you know, no nonsense because there are a lot of things you have to deal with in life that are not the fashion story that you’re working on. And I’ve had quite a few of those. And they show up with a kind of a practical eye. I think that when I went to Calvin, it was like I went home. All of a sudden I was with the person who I appreciated completely. And it was so easy to be part of his, you know, vision is sort of a stupid word, but part of his essence, of what he represented. I mean, it was a perfect, perfect fit for me. And what was interesting after that, was going from Calvin Klein to Harper’s Bazaar with Liz Tilberis where Wendy was also there. As you know, when he was the first person that they wanted to hire as the style director. Of all of us, she was the first. But when I got to Harper’s Bazaar, it was interesting, because I no longer had the parameters of Calvin Klein to work with. I had everything I wanted to do, right. So when I was there, all of the things that happened in my life became reflected in the photographs. So when I had my children, all of a sudden, there were kids in the pictures and the way you have a screaming child and you’re trying to cook. And you know, all of those moments showed up in the photographs. You know, my love of the desert showed up with Amber and Peter Lindbergh. And you know, the fact that when my son was born, I remember the angel landing at top Rockefeller Center was called my angel. And so it was a wonderful opportunity to have this huge expansion of being able to include in a photograph, which was something that was very, very personal to me.
Michael Boodro 14:42
Right. And one of the things that’s always impressed me about your work, is we’ve joked about this, that American practicality again. That you bring elegance to what’s practical, and one of the factors that a fashion editor or any magazine editor has to do is photographing the must. Because I worked briefly at Harper’s Bazaar as well. And “the must” at first I thought, those must be the most important pieces of the season. You must have them. But it’s actually as we know, in a way, it’s like the pieces that the advertisers make, and that you must show because you have to give the advertisers credit. So they’ll keep advertising. So that Vogue and Harper’s Bazaar would have a 600 page September issue. And, you know, some of those pieces as you know, well, I don’t have to explain to you, are not the most avant garde, not the most beautiful pieces. And yet, you always made that work.
Tonne Goodman 15:33
But that was the fun of it, you see, because I think that when you can certainly appreciate, you know, the John Galliano’s that come down the runway, you know, there is so much thought and premeditation that goes into the turnout of that look. You really don’t want to fool around with it. You don’t want to muck it up. But when you have a piece that you need to show, which is, you know, a very classic jacket, or a trench coat, you know, whatever it is, then you can really let your imagination go wild. You know, that trench coat can go over anything. It can go over nothing. You know, you really can have fun with it. So I have never been opposed to being given the you know, quote, unquote, musts. I’ve always enjoyed it. And the photographers do too. I mean, the days that we used to have fun on the set, I mean, we still have fun on the set. Well, actually, we have no fun on the set right now because there is no set.
Michael Boodro 16:26
Yes, we will get into that.
Tonne Goodman 16:30
But you know, Steven Mizell was probably my favorite photographer to work with in the early 2000s. Because we really built the pictures together, you know. The outfit or you know, outfit is a horrible word, but the look would develop on the set with all of the team contributing to it. And that was the fun of the whole thing. It wasn’t like you just plopped it on the model, she stood there and you took a picture. It wasn’t that at all.
Michael Boodro 16:55
Right. And one of the things that I find interesting about that year was in a way, as you were saying, it was almost like there were narratives. You did stories. It’s like, Wendy, you were saying that you want to tell the story of the person and the way they live. But right now, more recently, with the rise of Instagram, it seems there’s much more attention to an individual photograph. I mean, that’s the way Instagrams works. Do you think that’s a loss?
Wendy Goodman 17:24
Well, I think that storytelling is always the most fascinating thing for people. I mean, people, you know, love to see stories and hear stories. And I think that, again, technology and circumstance is giving us new opportunities to do that. And you’re so right. Instagram is this moment in time captured. And then, but now with this new, you know, the way new media is shifting with the podcasts, and with the storytelling on Instagram, and IGTV and TikTok. And you know, things like Quibi where you only have 10 minutes, like a tiny little short movie or short this – people’s attention spans are getting very used to that. And also the idea of using pickup like, you know like on The Cut, there are these wonderful stories that are being kind of put together by editors by looking at different Instagram accounts, and then picking this stuff and the other thing. So as we can’t go out and do shoots right now, and we can’t produce them, what do we call wonderful material and we present it. So yes, storytelling is taking on a whole new dimension with what’s going on now.
Michael Boodro 18:42
So Tonne, do you agree that people still want stories, but they just take them in, in different ways?
Tonne Goodman 18:48
I do. You know, I feel that you know, creativity and exposure and storytelling is even more important now. I really do think that the motor that gets us going, again, is creativity. Because what else are you going to rely on to move forward? I mean, we’re going to be in a very interesting position, because I think that fantasy is going to have a place and I think the practicality is going to have a place and reality is going to have a place and we’re going to have to really weave them together to make a kind of new world. I think that’s really what we’re up against now.
Michael Boodro 19:26
And that brings to mind something else that I wanted to talk to you about, which is celebrity culture because another specialty that Tonne, you developed, is working with well known celebrities, whether they’re movie actresses or politicians or Michelle Obama or whatever. And Tonne as you know, I don’t know if it affects you directly, but certainly I know, even at the shelter magazines, there’s a stress on getting celebrity homes. You know, Drake’s home is on the cover of AD this month and that kind of thing. So how did you adapt to that? And what do you think’s gonna happen with it?
Tonne Goodman 20:03
Well, I’m just gonna back up a little bit. When I left working with Mrs. Vreeland at the Metropolitan Museum, I went to the New York Times. I worked for the New York Times Magazine section with Carrie Donovan. And then from there, I went freelance. And I started to work actually for Life magazine. And one of the shoots that I did was with Madonna. So I think Madonna was actually one of the first celebrities that I worked with. And of course, she was the greatest one to work with at that time. She was on the rise. And I was, you know, I had a very modest apartment on the Upper West Side. Bruce Weber took the photographs. He came over and I had a rack of clothes. She came over by herself, probably walked down Central Park West, came in, went into my bedroom, and she took off all of her clothes. And she sat on the edge of the bed, and she waited for me to bring clothes to her to try it on. And that was the fitting. So it was a very different kind of moment. It was wonderful.
Michael Boodro 21:02
No publicists. Nothing.
Tonne Goodman 21:05
It was just us. And I think that degree of intimacy that I had right from the start was kind of a way for me to proceed with celebrities thereafter. And when I came to Vogue, I didn’t know that I was going to be doing all the celebrity covers. The first year that I was there, there was one celebrity and it wasn’t even an actor. It was an athlete. It was Marion Jones. The second year, I think there was one model or two models on the covers, and the rest was all celebrities. And it was because all of a sudden, the adjacent audience was grabbed, right? This newsstand was very, very active. Then people bought magazines from the newsstand.
Michael Boodro 21:45
And there’ll be hundreds on display.
Tonne Goodman 21:47
They will be on display. So if you could capture somebody’s audience by an actor wearing clothes – like for instance, when Natalie Portman was in Star Wars, all of a sudden you had the fashion audience that was going to pick up that magazine, but you also had the audience that loved movies and loved Star Wars. And so you’ve got this huge adjacent audience all of a sudden, that was purchasing the magazine. And that was really what kept. That’s what sold it, you know, thereafter. You know, you had to have a celebrity. And I, you know, I’ve almost done 200 covers for Vogue magazine. And that’s only Vogue. So there is also Harper’s Bazaar. And you know, really probably, you know, at least 95% of that has been celebrities.
Michael Boodro 22:33
Do you think that’s going to change now in light of the crisis? And when I was at Vogue a long time ago, I thought, oh, well, this celebrity culture, what do I know? I said this celebrity culture is going to peak and then will go down a little bit. Well, clearly I was wrong and it became way more influential, which is, you know, I’m not working at a magazine anymore, probably. But it does seem to me that things have changed in terms of the way people are regarding celebrities, as a result of the crisis.
Tonne Goodman 23:55
I think so. And I think that celebrities are regarding themselves differently. I think that celebrities now are realizing that the world and the way we are living is very, very politically driven. And I don’t really know what the right word is. But I think that if you’re a celebrity that doesn’t have a point of view, who is relating to what people are really going through now, then you’re just fluff. Nobody wants to pay attention. I mean, this is my personal view. So I think that the celebrities that have a voice and have, you know, a political voice for whatever they believe in, are the ones that are going to be listened to, and that people are going to be interested in. I think that they’re not going to be interested in somebody who doesn’t have something to say.
Michael Boodro 24:37
Right.
Wendy Goodman 24:38
It’s also interesting, but the way that we’re seeing celebrities now in their homes and in their sweatpants and I’m sure it’s calculated to a big degree,and then in their masks. It is paring down and, you know, becoming more down to earth, let’s say. More intimate. And I think the irony and the sort of amazing thing about this moment is that here we are all disconnected. But yet connected in a very intimate way, sort of in each other’s faces, literally, on our screens, doing these Zoom calls and doing live chats and doing all of this, you see people in ways you’ve never seen them before. And you visit with people that you would not have visited with before. So it’s a fascinating sort of juxtaposition.
Tonne Goodman 25:28
Well, it’s a virtual reality that has come true.
Michael Boodro 25:32
Wendy, you went away and started that, or were onto it early, shall we say. You know, this idea of really getting into someone’s home and looking at it as not a style statement, you know, representing this look, or whatever. Karl Lagerfeld, when he had his, you know, Memphis apartment, it wasn’t like, this isn’t exactly a whole style thing. It was like, this is really the way I live. And I think you were really early on to that, which is, I think, why you’ve adapted so well, to The Cut and Instagram and all of that, because you’re sort of looking into people’s lives and telling the story, as you said. It really resonates, still. But I wanted to ask you about the connection with fashion, because I know what, we remember, Wendy, that fashion designers were going to take over the home. And that we know so many started, I think right in the 70s. With Saint Laurent, I remember, everybody wanted to have those sheets when I was young. And you know, and Diane von Furstenburg and a lot of people have tried to create a connection. Calvin Klein has had a home collection for a long time, a very successful one for a long time. Ralph Lauren still does. How do you see that connection continuing? Because fashion now is a little bit challenging as much as it’s everything. But fashion has been going through a rough couple of years, even before Corona. So how do you see that continuing?
Wendy Goodman 26:53
I think that’s a really good question. And I was just thinking, as you were saying those names of Christian Loquet. Remember? There was this moment at House and Garden when he did his apartment in Paris, it was like, whoa. And I think now that’s kind of dissolved in the Ethernet. I mean, I think that there’s so much creativity you see on Instagram. I mean, I don’t think fashion designers have that kind of sway and pull anymore in the home area, because there is so much generated now online and so much generated on Instagram. And people are so creative and kind of innovative, that I can’t really think of a fashion designer today, who has influenced interiors, the way that they used to. I mean, Ralph Lauren is in a league of his own, of course, and so is Calvin. And so was Loquet back in the day. But I really cannot think of anybody who has done a line and go oh, yeah, that translates perfectly. But I think it’s a shifting landscape as far as that goes. Don’t you?
Michael Boodro 28:02
I do but I wonder who the influencers are going to be? I mean, besides Instagram influencers themselves, those young people, generally young, who came out and made a big impact with Instagram and now are paid by brands or design houses, fashion houses or whatever. But that seems to be waning. So where do you think the next – I don’t know why it’s waning and maybe it just became ubiquitous, and God knows fashion and home evolve but where do you think the next impact is going to come from?
Wendy Goodman 28:35
It’s a really good question. I just don’t know, because I think that we’re in the middle of this volcanic eruption right now where so much that we knew as far as what we counted on and what we look to, as you know, that’s a great whatever, is kind of not there anymore. So something new is bubbling up, and something new is kind of on the horizon for us. And it seems to be really literally inside our phones. You know, we look at Instagram, and we look at all these different sites. So I think the birth of this new kind of aesthetic is so diverse now. There are so many voices out there. And I think that’s the challenge too is which one is going to emerge because there’s still too much information as always, because of the Internet. I mean, how do you edit it? How do you decide what has value and what will have lasting value?
Tonne Goodman 29:31
Well lasting is the word. I was about to interject that you know, longevity is part of this equation, too. I mean, we were so used to the instantaneous newness or whatever the proper word is of what’s going on now. I think that it’s not only what bubbles to the surface and what erupts but what has any kind of longevity because as you said before, the attention span now has changed. It’s just completely changed. So you know what is lasting and meaningful and gets into you and stays and then develops, I think that’s going to be a very interesting discovery. I don’t know what that’s going to be. I mean, you know, they do say that love conquers all. And I do feel that love is – I know how corny it sounds, but I think it is just the only thing that is all encompassing and keeps one going.
Michael Boodro 30:22
Right. But do you see anything, Tonne? I mean, God knows, it seems to be harder than ever, for young designers to make an impact and to become seen and known. Do you see anyone on the horizon that you think is going to have the impact that say Calvin did at the time or, or even Galliano or Marc Jacobs?
Tonne Goodman 30:41
Well, once again, I think that, you know, because of the exposure that everybody has from Instagram, and the variety that they see of the way people put themselves together, I’m not so sure. I think much more of an eclectic point of view in fashion is really going to be the one that stays put. And I think that, you know, personally, I’m now the sustainability editor at Vogue. And I am very, very hopeful that the sustainable movement will really gain traction now. I mean, obviously. It’s the only place we can go as an industry. The fashion industry is culpable in many, many, many ways. And we all know it. And I think that it’s an opportunity now, where, you know, there already are pioneers out there. Stella McCartney is a great example. We could follow a lot of her practices and make some serious headway. So you know, I think the young designers are using and repurposing fabrics, because they don’t have the money or the resources to develop fabrics the way they used to be developed. So in a way, that’s a very, very positive term for young designers, I think.
Michael Boodro 31:48
Right. And sustainability, wouldn’t you agree, Wendy, is starting to bubble up in the design industry? Which, if anything, we’re probably just as bad as the fashion industry, and when you have construction and the way things are done, it seems like there’s a growing awareness of it and a need, but I don’t know how that’s gonna kind of resolve itself. Do you have any ideas, Wendy?
Wendy Goodman 32:09
Well, I think that sustainability is an issue that is a really slippery slope, because a lot of the “sustainable things” are just as toxic as other things.
Michael Boodro 32:21
Well, it’s a term that can be applied to anything, like organic. What does it mean, you know?
Wendy Goodman 32:26
And you know, 3D printing, that sounds so great, and it’s great, whoa. But that’s a lot of plastic in the atmosphere, and a lot of all that stuff. So I think, again, the focus has to be in these days looking at, we’ve got so much technology and so much talent in the design industry. Can we not do better affordable housing? Can we not do better emergency shelters, you know, or putting up kid houses and things that are just fantastic. You know, they’re good looking. They’re easy to maintain and, you know, all of the efforts now I think, have to go into this more, you know, altruistic and really helpful, cleanup. And that includes sustainability. But it’s also like focused, you know. Instead of these luxury high rise buildings that are now all vacant, and a place like Hudson Yards, I mean, what’s going to happen to these spaces?
Michael Boodro 33:21
I know. Neiman Marcus is on is declared bankruptcy, and that’s the anchor tenant there.
Wendy Goodman 33:26
Yeah, that’s right. So, I mean, again, I could get into a whole thing about Hudson Yards, and how wrong that felt but I think to really examine, you know, what we’ve done and how we can be better from the mistakes we’ve made. I mean, I hope.
Michael Boodro 33:46
What worries me is that sustainability is in fashion, shall we say? And as we know, fashions change. You know, I remember after 911, Graydon Carter declared irony was dead. You know, that lasted about six months, if that. So, we’ll see. But I do think this was something I wanted to ask both of you about. I do think that, you know, this is my party line. I’ve been saying this since the crisis really got started. I think that this time is going to point out to people how important their homes are, the way they function, their shelter. So I think in a way the home industry is going to come out of this pretty well, but I’m not sure about fashion. So I’d love to hear what you think Tonne.
Tonne Goodman 34:28
Well, I think that you have a point, I have to say. I think that you know, just the mechanics, the business mechanics for fashion right now are so incredibly threatened because of the supply chain. I mean, it’s such an involved and complicated and global situation. I just, you know, I’m very concerned about all of it. And I think that, you know, Anna is a huge champion. She has started, you know, the common thread, which is to support young designers. And, you know, I think that the leaders within the fashion community are really going to have to step up and show what they’re worth. And I think that, you know, the big wigs need to. You know, it really comes down to being very, very political. You know, things have got to change. I mean, in our country, we’re really in trouble. Because politically, we’re kind of screwed right this moment, you know. And I think that, gosh, Michael, I just, you know, it’s a sobering, sobering question. And I just don’t know. I think that we have to be as positive as we possibly can.
Michael Boodro 35:44
Right. Well, I do think that any society that doesn’t encourage and support creativity is a society that’s much poorer than it should be. And is on its way down and out. And I am inspired by young people that there is so much creativity there. It’s certainly harder for them. But I think they’re gonna find a way through. What do you think, Wendy? What have you been seeing? You’re a young hipster. You’re out there with the young folk. What do you see?
Wendy Goodman 36:14
Well, I think it’s harder. and it’s easier at the same time, because this sort of democracy of – remember, in our careers, there was a sort of, not ladder climbing, but there was a process. You interned, and you assisted and you did this, and then you did that. Now, it’s like, zoom, you’re right at the top, because you showed a great this and that on Instagram, and I mean, the whole process has changed. So in a way a kid getting out of school can like, you know, make toys in dollars, because they did something in their garage.
Michael Boodro 36:51
You can shoot a whole movie on your iPhone, you know.
Wendy Goodman 36:53
That’s right. You can shoot a movie. You can start a podcast. You can do a line of clothing. And then you can advertise it. There’s no middleman and you’re not paying an agent, you know. All of this stuf that was part of the process is gone. So without middlemen, the hierarchy is gone. There’s this democracy of, here I am. Take me as I am. And here’s what I can do. And so that’s really exciting, and really great but it also can just produce so much stuff.
Michael Boodro 37:25
Yeah, that’s what I was gonna ask you about. Because like, with everybody making all this stuff, how do you find the good stuff? And is there still a role for what we do, which is sort of the editors? And who is to say this is better than that?
Wendy Goodman 37:41
I think this is because I scout, and as I look at projects, it’s not just about oh, this is really original or this is a twist on whatever or this is great to look at. It’s about, what is the intention and the authenticity? Is it well done? Is there discipline? Is there real know-how? Or is it just a bunch of stuff slapped together where somebody dragged in some pieces of furniture? It looks like a showroom. I mean, who lives here? What do they care about? So I think if you’re going to have media, and if you’re going to tell people, invest in looking at X Y and Z, because we’re the editors. We’re presenting it to you and we still have a responsibility to say we vetted it and this is why we think it’s worth your time. This is why we want to present this because it’s a value. You know, you can like it or not like it. It’s your opinion, but this is why we think this is something worth your time.
Michael Boodro 38:45
And do people still come to you wanting to be in New York Magazine?
Wendy Goodman 38:49
Yeah.
Michael Boodro 38:54
The sad thing is the media landscape has changed. You know, like we talked about the days of newsstands where you’d go to any corner and have your choice of any magazines. Now practically if you don’t subscribe, you have to go to the airport almost to find magazines. There’s a few stores, but very few, and even supermarkets. So it’s not as ubiquitous. And I think maybe the audience is a little more specialized and rarefied than it used to be for style and design and fashion magazines. But I think that’s a very passionate audience and they still look to the editors. But you know, it’s also a business that was based on advertising. How do you see that shaking out?
Wendy Goodman 39:35
Yeah. It’s very frightening. Because I mean, we do not know the fallout yet. The collapse of the economy and it’s in freefall, as we’re speaking. I mean, we don’t know the outcome. And we don’t know what’s going to, you know, survive and what isn’t, and it’s a very frightening time, as far as you know, the economy and just what can survive and where will those dollars go? Those precious advertising dollars. How will they allot them? Will it just be online? You know, it’s a very frightening and very fragile time for media and advertising for sure.
Michael Boodro 40:13
And what do you think, Tonne?
Tonne Goodman 40:16
You know, I can do nothing but agree because you know, there’s a dynamic going on now, which is a seesaw. Nobody knows. You know, the fulcrum hasn’t been found yet. The stabilizing force and the you know. So I just don’t know. I really don’t know. I think we’re all asking that same question right now.
Michael Boodro 40:35
Right. And I think that we are all, God knows, say victims of the larger world, and what happens and we can only respond to that. But at the same time, we can motivate ourselves and do things on our own. So I want to ask you about, what are you excited about that you’re working on now? What’s coming up? Just even in the next month or two? I mean, I know it’s hard. You can’t really shoot or go out. But what have you been thinking about and looking at, reading and finding?
Tonne Goodman 41:04
Well, we are starting to shoot. And so that whole discovery process of how literally the steps that we take, to do it, to technically do a shoot is a discovery process right now. Which of course I find fascinating, because you know, anything that is systematic, that you have to apply yourself to, I personally find very, very interesting. And to combine that and hold hands with the creative process. It’s a challenge for sure. But in June, we’re going to start to shoot again. And, you know, there’s a whole fascination of how do you get the clothes? What’s available? Can you put clothes on a model at this point? How do you sanitize them? There’s a big, big, big question going on, which I think is quite fascinating. And I think that we have to credit ourselves with being inventive. And we’ll figure it out. You know, we’re gonna figure this one out and see if it’s worth it in the end. With that ultimate imagery, what kind of resonance is it gonna have? I hope a lot, because I hope that the ones behind it will make it have a lot of resonance, significance and application, but it’s a challenge for all of us. I mean, I am looking forward to getting back to work. I really, really am.
Michael Boodro 42:19
Yeah, yeah. And Wendy, what about you? I know, you said you’ve been working with The Cut and you can look on Instagram?
Wendy Goodman 42:27
Well, I’m excited about exploring the challenges we went through this morning of working within this new medium. I mean, the live design hunt. I invite designers to do a live chat with me on design hunting. We’re just stepping up that program so that we can do house tours with them from their iPhones walking us through this and that. And I think that, you know, I’m excited about getting right in, you know, interior lives, the videos that we did, which are sort of on hold at the moment, but really developing a way of telling stories, again, with videos and with this whole online opportunity. The design hunting, Instagram takeovers, and live chats are very fun, and something that I love doing. And so the immediacy of what we have going on now is very exciting. That’s why I wanted to be on the podcast with you because talking to you is as always the best and it’s embracing what is happening now.
Michael Boodro 43:29
I never thought I’d be hosting a podcast, I can tell you that.
Wendy Goodman 43:32
It’s fantastic. I mean, I think again, you need to be part of your time. And I think there are always these very exciting things happening. And you’re embracing it. And it’s fantastic. It’s fun. And it’s a challenge. It’s great.
Tonne Goodman 43:47
I mean, communication is everything. It’s always been everything. And you know, the fact that we can do this together, is important.
Michael Boodro 43:55
It’s rather a miracle. I mean, what you have in your phone is a miracle. The fact that we have this is a miracle because you know, I’m sure at the time, they thought the invention of the car was a miracle, which it was, or the plane. But this is kind of, and boy do we need it now more than ever so we should be very, very grateful that we can do this. That we have Zoom, that we have podcasts and that we have all this stuff that we can talk to each other – I mean, I miss being able to give you guys a hug or whatever, but at least I can see you and talk to you. And that is a huge thing. And I think as long as the creative community talks to each other, as you were saying Tonne, and appreciate each other and support each other. We’ll muddle through somehow. And as you said, Wendy, it’s the only time we have. This is our time so we have to make the most of it.
Wendy Goodman 44:47
Exactly. Yeah.
Tonne Goodman 44:49
And the fun factor. The fun factor has got to be woven in there too. That word, you know, is kind of like falling off and we need to keep it in the foreground. Fun.
Michael Boodro 45:01
I totally agree with you Tonne. Fun, charm, humor. These are the things that keep us absolutely grounded and human. And I think they’re so important and it’s always totally fun to talk to both of you. Really appreciate your time today. Thanks for listening to the Chairish podcast.
Lead image courtesy of Skin Photography LLC.
